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Biblical Authority

By Joshua Kagi ⋅ January 10, 2008 ⋅ Post a comment

I’m going to have a moment of honesty with you here, and I’d bet that many of you would consider the following thoughts blasphemous. But if I can’t talk about it with friends, who can I talk about it with?

I struggle with the thinking that the bible is an absolute authority.

And no, this doesn’t stem from any ‘DaVinci Code’ theology. I’ve never read the book or seen the movie — and I’ve struggled with these thoughts since before the book came out.

Firstly, what makes something someone has written in the last several centuries any less important than what’s found in the bible?

Does God not still speak and inspire poets and writers?

Are some of the books of the bible nothing more than a commentary of their time?

Why is it that something written by Martin Luther, John Calvin, or hell, Brian McLaren and Rob Bell not on par with some Biblical books?

Secondly, why are the books of the bible in the bible? Because someone at sometime after-the-fact, decided that they should or shouldn’t be included. The authority is no longer Gods, but mans.

Lastly, the Bible is littered with stories where God set down rules in order to bring a generation to the next stage of enlightenment. Then when the next generation came along a new set of rules was put in place. Much of Christianity is focused on the OLD rules when Jesus clearly gave us the ultimate snapshot of enlightenment and boiled it down to two things: Love and serve God, and love you’re neighbor.

The Bible serves as a great history of Christianity — up until 70 AD or so — and it has great lessons and morals. But it’s all human accounts of God, not God himself. Where I find the authority in the Bible is in the accounts of Gods character. If someone says something that does not appear to be in Gods character as seen throughout the Bible, then there is obvious reason to question. And, yes, there’s obvious danger in saying God speaks through us, not just pages in a book — but I think God can take care of and protect Himself just fine without us.

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32CommentsBiblical+Authority2008-01-10+23%3A47%3A20Joshua+Kagi for “Biblical Authority”

welcome to the club my friend. welcome to the club.

btw, how are you enjoying the new template?

Posted by josh | January 10, 2008, 9:25 pm

We just had this GREAT discussion about this topic, among many, in a small group at my church building (like my new terminology?). You would have dug it.

Posted by your barb | January 10, 2008, 11:21 pm

I’m with you friend.

Posted by Jemila | January 13, 2008, 3:05 pm

Josh - I have to stay away from your blog. It sends me off into cyberspace to other wonderful blogs and then I am up too late and I am too tired in the morning. HELP!

(love you)

Posted by barbara | January 13, 2008, 10:17 pm

@ Josh Brown, thanks for the welcome. I’ve been a member of the club for awhile, just haven’t felt able to voice my membership except for a couple close people.

@ Jemila, Thanks for visiting! I find the words on your site absolutely inspiring and challenging. Thank you for what you do. You can thank Josh Brown for leading me to you.

@ Barbara, I’d love love love to have a small group that got into these types of topics. Epinoia does, but we just haven’t been meeting regularly enough. I’m looking though… And as far as good blog reading, welcome to my world. Just be glad I didn’t set up your computer with all my favorites when I was up there last weekend. It crossed my mind while I was using it.

Posted by Joshua Kagi | January 14, 2008, 12:07 am

You’ll just have to come back…..

Posted by your barb | January 14, 2008, 4:25 pm

Thanks for the kind words, Josh. I dig your site too
What would I give for a small group of authentically humble, confused, alive, grateful, (un) Christians opening up to Christ and one another and above all, the Spirit that unites human beings in Love!

Posted by Jemila | January 15, 2008, 11:14 am

These writings, all those “other” blogs you send me to, Epinoia, Rick’s site, Jemila’s comments, and all of you wonderful young people in my world just make me so so so so so so so so sooooooo very thankful for the fact that I ended up here in Mac, at my church.

Posted by your barb | January 16, 2008, 10:24 pm

I look at it this way: every principle I’ve learned from the Bible has, in some way, inspired me, taught me, guided me, and loved me. The way I live my life, treat my wife and children, act as an employee, a church member, and a community member, is a direct result of what the Bible teaches.

When I’ve submitted to the authority of God’s word, things have gone well; not always easy, but well. When I’ve ignored them and gone my own way, I’ve suffered the consequences and learned from my mistakes.

Authority is defiend as: The right and power to enforce laws, exact obedience, command, determine or judge. Yes, the Bible is all of those things (in my mind) but I think the scriptures are so much more. Here are a few of my examples…

Inspiration, revelation, encouragement, love, relationship, creativity, romance, friendship, restoration, reconciliation, etc. Since the Bible represents all of those things and more, and because of the impact it has had on my life, I have no problem calling it an absoulte authority. The evidence is beyond the shadow of a doubt for me.

I don’t know you very well, Josh, but I would suspect there are biblical qualities about you. So if that’s the case, and if you’ve seen evidence of those principles emanating in your life, shouldn’t that be the answer to your question?

Posted by Jason Carr | January 17, 2008, 9:18 am

I’m not one of those people who thinks If I get up every morning and read my bible my day will be better. I used to get that from church a lot. I’m not a person who looks at the bible for formula’s because formula’s don’t work. I don’t even know if I believe that doing the right thing will make things go better. Sometimes, often times when I do the right thing, everything (in the worlds eyes) seems to fall apart.
I believe God is the ultimate authority. I believe the bible is God’s word. I see it as a guide, a reference point, an historical document and a book that God continues to speak to me, through.
I hear your questions and understand where you are coming from.
But sometimes I think we can get so caught up on authority questions and questions over did this happen or is this what it really means, that we forget about our purpose on this earth….To love God and love his people….and to serve.
Questions are great. You know me I love questions. But whether the Bible is the authority, I’ve resolved that in my spirit and will keep reading it, keep spending time with my God and will listen as he reveals through His word and people like you, the best way to love and serve His people.
(smile)

Posted by Rick Dancer | January 18, 2008, 6:44 am

Oh, one other thing I thought of…

Jesus is authority, yet he said, “I came to serve, and not be served.” Wow, great example of what an authorit should be like. That’s the same example I try to use in my relationship with my wife. God has called me to guide, protect, and be an authority. But I’m not called to “Lord it over” or boss my wife arounnd. I’m called to love and serve.

I wrote about a great experience on my blog that I had with my son. Basically, he didn’t want to go in the nursery at church last Sunday (he’s two-years-old), so he just sat with my wife and me in the sanctuary. I got to hold him, and he held on tight. God revealed to me at that moment that what I was doing with my son, is what God does with me. He holds me tight in his arms and loves me no matter what.

Since I believe that’s what authority is really suppose to be like, I personally have no problem putting myself under the umbrealla of God’s authority, and the authority of his word.

Posted by Jason Carr | January 18, 2008, 10:10 am

The bible is one big propoganda book. It was written with the sole purpose to provide some wisdom and saw people to believe in God, and later, to follow Jesus. That’s all it is! A big ol’ propoganda book!

Did the propoganda book with all of it’s dumb ideas about life, it’s inpspired and true reports about God telling people to bash the heads of babies against rocks, about self sacrafice get you to believe in God or not?

There’s enough information about Jesus that has been written about him, that you can get inspired to be a Christian without ever reading any bible!

I like reading source material that gets me a little closer to what people said a long time ago. Even though the Gospels are a little different from each other, I think they do provide enough information about Jesus and what he said that I am able to differentiate that from the rest of the propoganda in the bible. The bible is not very good history, and much of it is moralistically out of touch with reality.

For me Christ is the center. Love and compassion is where it’s at. Forget the bible, practice love! You’ll have it made in the shade!

Posted by John Koskela | January 18, 2008, 8:27 pm

The cross is foolishness to those who don’t believe.

Posted by Jason Carr | January 18, 2008, 9:18 pm

John,

Can you clarify for me what you mean by the Bible is all propaganda? I guess I’m confused because it seems like on one had you say you believe in Jesus, but on the other hand you say the Bible is bogus.

It’s hard for me to see how that’s possible when Jesus and his life wouldn’t exit without the Old Testament. It’s all tied so closely together.

Thanks.

Posted by Jason Carr | January 18, 2008, 9:34 pm

From and in Oregon, where the west is best,

Jesus was a real person, who really lived. The Bible is not the only historical document describing Jesus. The Gospels in the Bible provide the closest information about Jesus and what he stood for. However, every Gospel was written not only to provide some historical information about Jesus but also written to “convince” people that what he stood for was important. Matthew’s Gospel was written to convince people of Jewish/Hebrew faith about Jesus. Mark, the same but a bit more towards non-Jewish people, Luke directed to Jewish people, John directed to the Greeks, non-Jewish people.

Just because “all” of the Bible was written to “convince” people, and even though it contains a lot of misinformation, it does actually “convince” people. That’s what I mean by propoganda.

So, do the Want-Ads of your local newspaper “convince” people to go buy things! Not all Want-Ads have true and accurate information.

Every biography written about a famous person has a slant to it. the bible has its slants too.

Separate out from the Bible the junk (and there is a lot in it), and you still have some convincing information about self-sacrafice, about compassion, about love for people. Yes, there are many, many statements in the Bible written that God said this, God said that. He didn’t say most of it at all. He simply let people write about him the best way they could. It’s enough, just not very well put.

Even when you don’t believe in God, no one can dispute the fact that people have been inspired to be like Jesus after reading the Bible. For me that’s enough.

Posted by John Koskela | January 19, 2008, 10:02 am

John,

Interesting thoughts. Thanks for sharing.

Posted by Jason Carr | January 19, 2008, 10:29 am

John, first, welcome to the site and thanks for stopping by. The summer I was able to work with your wife on programing at Camp Arrah Wanna was a great one.

As for your thoughts that the Bible is one large piece of propaganda, I’m not sure I’d go that far. Do the authors of the various books have their slants? Sure. But, at the same time, it’s not some mass conspiracy.

I suppose it’s possible you’re just using the term propaganda much more loosely than I would.

As for the Bible not being very good history. I think it’s extremely accurate. Scholars and archaeologist alike, agree. Maybe it’s not a very appealing history with wars, murders, weird tribal sacrifices, etc., but it’s a history none-the-less.

And with your comment, “and much of it is moralistically out of touch with reality.” I’d urge you to read my post on Epinoia Cafe, “God Never Changes, but Times Do,” which sums up my thoughts on all the odd-to-us traditions and laws of the Old Testament.

While I’m defending the Bible to you, I still struggle with its cover-to-cover authority in my life. I don’t think it’s all “inspired word of God,” but I think a lot of it is. The ultimate point of my post, which I might not have articulated clearly, is I think there are hundreds of thousands of other places besides the bible to just as easily learn about God, and that can be an authority.

Posted by Joshua Kagi | January 19, 2008, 11:13 pm

I agree Josh, there is history in the Bible, and agreed God never changes, people do. I changed for the better, ….. I think.

For me, the Bible did not bring me a to a Christian faith. The Bible was a hinderance! What convinced me to follow Christ? CS Lewis, the last book in the his series, The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe!!!!!!!

Then I read all the rest of the books written by CS Lewis and was sold about Jesus. The Bible was not much help at all. From the Bible, I learned about the center of the Gospel (John 3:15), and Jesus Words that most call the Golden Rule.

And this was “AFTER” I trudged the streets in San Bernadino first getting people into discussions about the 4 Spriritual Laws (I thought I knew so much then), then I did the Coral Ridge Evangelism thing, house to house to house to house. What a great program for telling people about salvation! Again, I thought I knew so much then, but was wrong! Then two years ago I discovered the real Gospel is found in Jesus’ own words, and I’m back to the simple CS Lewis template about faith.

Only within the past 2 years, have I had a re awakening concerning the Bible and it’s limited to the Gospels, and pretty much “ONLY” the Gospels. They call people with this kind of focus, Red Letter Christians. I used to make fun of them. Now I’m one of them.

Posted by John Koskela | January 20, 2008, 8:58 pm

Josh,

I completely agree with you the fact that we can learn about God in thousands of other places. I think the Bible is supposed to be a guidepost, a starting point for us; but simply looking out the window at a beautiful sunrise is a testament to God’s authority and creation. When I spend time with my wife, play with my children, and fish in various lakes and streams…all of those experiences teach my about God’s love and authority.

There are experiences that we have in life, and with other people, that serve to enhance or solidify our perceptions and thoughts about God. At least, that’s what I’ve experienced.

Posted by Jason Carr | January 21, 2008, 4:00 pm

It’s funny….I’m reading these comments, thinking I’m such a radical guy, and nervous about the direction this conversation is going. I hesitate to say something for fear people will come against me. But there’s something inside me that is screaming…wait a second….this is too far.
I left the institutional church a few years ago…I’m outspoken with what I think God is up to and that is a network of people, not necessarily a corporate church.
But in any movement, there is, for me, a too far.
Saying the Bible is propaganda? Something deep within my spirit is crying…stop.
I hear what you are saying and understand skepticism….I’ve had a lot more time to perfect it than a few of you.
And I’m all about questioning things….but there are some questions you just won’t get answers too.
I think for too long the bible has been used to beat people over the head. I think the church has used it as the rules and regulations of our faith.
The bible has some of that but for me it’s stories of the lives of people. Stories that the Holy Spirit brings alive, to speak to us today. It’s our guide, it’s the word of God and it’s Holy.
Propaganda…? I don’t agree. I know all the stories of how this guy and that guy decided what goes in it. But God’s way bigger than man. At some point we really must understand who’s kingdom it is….Gods.

I’m trying to be so careful with all of this. I really am….But I don’t think the propaganda is coming from the bible.

Posted by Rick Dancer | January 27, 2008, 8:03 am

To sum up the biggest issue with the traditional concept of Biblical authority…

The idea of Biblical authority is that all that what is contained within the Bible is more authoritative than that which is not. As you touched on, this means that everything written since Revelation and the various Johns — i.e., the early 90s A.D. — is less authoritative than the Bible.

Put differently, everything thought, said, or written since the turn of the first century A.D. is said not to be divinely inspired — or at least, not fully so.

The problem is that it would take a measure of authority equal to or greater than that which the Bible possesses to make such a statement (close the cannon). Since the book itself does not say at any point that divine inspiration possessing a Biblical level of authority shall never happen again (partially because at the time it was written, the book didn’t know it existed), how was the cannon closed?

Men did it. Which is to say that for a brief time, men assumed Biblical authority in order to close the cannon…. and then, what… gave it back?

It requires authority equal or greater to that of the Bible to close the cannon and exclude all not contained therein from that level of authority. And yet, the very authority necessary to do so is extra-Biblical, and therefore the ends invalidate the means!

Oh, hey, I like that. From now on, this is how I’m going to sum it up:

The Cannon of Scripture is a ridiculous thing — the ends invalidate the means.

As you can see, you’re not the only one who has thought of this for a while. But have you had this discussion in a Eugene Bible College classroom? Heh heh… that one was fun…

Posted by Tucker | June 26, 2008, 2:05 pm

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