I’ve left the church. Not the Church, but the church. It’s an important distinction. The church is the building, the congregation; while the Church is the body of Christ, all his followers.With that said, I’ve left the church. I’m tired of the bureaucracy to do anything, even if it was something God breathed and Spirit led. I’m tired of the hordes of luke-warm bodies who might show up every week, write a check to cover their “tithe of obligation,” but the moment the benediction ends, don’t spend one second living for God until the next Sunday morning when it’s fashionable to do so, or because it’s what they’ve always done. I’m tired of having to defend my faith to people because I dress a certain way, or because I think that when God said to love everyone he meant it — including the homeless people who spend time under the walkway cover of the church, or my gay friends who have done no more ‘sin’ then the elders of a church, yet somehow being gay is worse than being a lier, an adulterer, or a murderer. I’m tired of trying to be the change in the church, the new generation that will climb the steps of the lighthouse to spoke the flame and make it burn bright again and being blocked every time.
I’m leaving, and there’s a good chance I won’t come back.
I’ve found something better — instead of finding a church, I’ve found the Church. I’ve found people who are willing to sacrifice their lives for God. I’ve found people who want to be God’s agents of change in the world. In fact, I’ve always known these people — they’ve always been around, but I was raised to always see the church they were from, and not the Church that they are, the body of Christ.
Some of these people were part of my local church, some of them I’ve known through my local churches regional affiliation, some were friends from outside church settings, and still others I’ve never met in person, but have come to admire and respect through their words. They too are frustrated with the church, and have decided to be the Church instead. Some are still in the local church, and that works for them — I’m proud of them for that — but, for me, it’s time to move on.
It’s very important that I remain part of the body of christ, part of the Church, and for many, maybe even most, that has been the local church. For me, that hasn’t been the case for years. I may have attended a church, but by no means did I feel I was part of the body there. I even participated on everything from pastoral search committees to a steering committee that recommended to the congregation to sell half their property. I’ve even been a youth leader and the media guru running sound and power-point for years. Yet, even through all that, it’s been a long time since I’ve been part of the body through the local church.
My spiritual guidance has come from some individuals of the church, even the pastor, but not on Sunday mornings. Rather, it was through individual conversations, and sometimes through conversations that would likely be considered heresy by the congregation as a whole. But, even though some of my time with fellow believers has been through the local church, most of it has been outside the church — and the parts that have taken place inside the church were not part of the church ministry, but rather the individual people involved, and as such can continue separate from my participation with the church as a whole.
What has kept me from leaving the local church up to now is I wanted a voice at the table. How can I be an agent for change when I’m not an active participant? It’s a valid reason, and one that some people still bring up with me. But, my response is this: I think the age of the local church is nearing its end. It may still survive in one form or another, but the way people seek God may not be in the corporate congregational worship experience we’ve known for the last few centuries. This is not to say that “God is dead,” but rather that He is doing a new thing, and I can be a part of it.
George Barna, the well known surveyor of church-life says this in his book Revolution, “As I have tracked people’s inclinations through our national research studies, I have concluded that by the year 2025, the spiritual profile of the nation will be dramatically different. Specifically, I expect that only about one-third of the population will rely upon a local congregation as the primary or exclusive means for experiencing and expressing their faith; one-third will do so through alternative forms of a faith-based community; and one-third will realize their faith through the media, the arts, and other cultural institutions.”
In the year 2000, Barna found that 70-percent of Americans experienced and expressed their faith through the local church, but by 2025 that number will be between 30 and 35-percent.
Personally, my faith is experienced and expressed through a hodgepodge or mosaic of ways. I participate in a small group, Epinoia Café, where we discuss odds and ends of spirituality and faith. I have individual relationships where I can be held accountable, while doing the same for others. I use the creativity God gave me through writing, and spending time doing web-design. I learn from both scholars through their books, and individuals who journal or blog publicly, while also listening to sermons from Rob Bell of Mars Hill and Rick McKinley of Imago Dei every week. Most of all, I still have the Bible.
All this has led to a more spiritual and God focused life then I’ve ever had. In leaving the church, I’ve found the Church. I, and I think and hope God, is well pleased.
This post is tagged , church, George Barna, Theology
16 Comments
A great piece Josh. I wish you the best in the future and though your participation with the church is finished, I believe your place in the Church will remain for eternity.
We are entering the age of the mega-church, where people no longer have to own up to their actions; they can simply put on a mask every Sunday morning and flood the halls of the mega-church like sheep.
Hopefully we can all find our own niche in society to maintain that tight bond that you have managed to attain with God.
Sorry if I sound like I’m preaching here, haha. Best of luck to you Josh, and can I expect to see you at Winter Camp?
Luke thank you so much for your thoughts. You know, I hope this doesn’t scare you, but you remind me so much of myself when I was your age.
*wow, that was a scary statement, I’m getting old.
As far as winter camp. I probably won’t be up there all three weekends, but it’s been floating around in my head I need to be up there for high school camp when you guys are there. Maybe even as your counselor? I’m not sure yet though, it would depend if my work schedule worked out or not.
Josh,
Wow! I can sense the passion in the tone of your recent post. I can’t say that I disagree with much of what you said about the church.
I believe the church will change. I see it. I’m experiencing it. It won’t happen from the baby-boomer generation, but from the current generation, and the one coming up. The pastor of the church I attend is only 32. He’s so different from any other pastor. I thank part of it is his age, and his ideas tend to be more modern, relevant, and servant-minded. The other part is, he sees exactly what you’re talking about, and he talks about it and preaches about it.
In a recent sermon, he said that Christians are lazy, don’t serve, and have such a narrow view of what church is about, that they isolate themselves within the walls of the building. He challenged everyone to make church a lifesytle seven days a week, not just on Sundays.
Personally, I don’t think the structure of the church is the problem, but the mentality. The only way it’s going to change is from the leadership of pastors and elders. They are the ones who must see the vision, hear from God (be willing to hear from prophets), and motivate people to move. (God has placed them in that position for a reason, but many of them are failing to listen.) I think the church is stagnant, in large part, because of poor leadership (I’m speaking generally here!) Obviously, we all have responsibility in this, but leaders (in many cases) have done a terrible job of discipling and teaching people what “being” the church is all about.
I don’t want to get into a debate about the gay issue, but I will say this: people who are living a homosexual lifestyle are living in sin. Yes, the elder who is lording over church members or treating his wife and children poorly is also sinning, and he should be dealt with accordingly. I totally understand the hypocracy of making one sin look better than the other; however, we can’t forget that sin is sin. I realize the church has focused on homosexuality as a moral dilema, even though it fails to feed the poor, help the drug addicts, etc. In whatever area a person struggles with, I think we need to be careful as Christians not to minimize it, or make it OK. Loving people goes much deeper than just accepting them for who they are.
I know this is a long comment, but I’m almost finished… One of the problems I see with not being part of an organized fellowship is the accountability and commradre of others. When we take ourselves outside of that context, we inherently surround ourselves with like-minded people, usually of the same generation (I don’t believe that’s God intention). I think we miss out on the advice from the 80-year-old retired business man, or the prayers and encouragement from the faithful widow. As young men, I think it’s important that we submit ourselves to an older man who can encourage us, help us, give us advice, and gently rebuke us when needed. If you’re not going to be in a church, I think it’s necessary to find someone like that who you can meet with on a consisent basis. That relationship can’t happen just once a month.
The Bible is very clear about how to deal with someone who has fallen into sin, and how you are to proceed. But how is that possible without submitting yourself to leadership? Who are you accountable to? Your friends? To a point, but they’re likely to just pat you on the back and say, “It’s OK.” Sometimes being gently admonished for our decisions and actions is not only healthy, but necessary. Scripturally, all accountability is talked about within the context of a body with leadership. I just struggle to see how that functions outside of that structure.
The concept of the “church with no walls” is a great idea. Foundationally, I’m just not sure how long it can last. God is a God of order, and not a God of confusion. God is creative, yet He is also wants things in their place (heck, there’s even a distince order to creation). I believe that there is room for the mentatily that you’d like to see in the body of Christ, along with the order, structure, and accountabilty that is so vital for every believer.
Josh, please don’t think I’m telling you not to do this. It’s not my place, and if you’ve heard from God, who I’m I to argue with you? My spiritual gifts are pastor/teacher. When I say things, I say them because I care, and because I want to help people stay on the right track. We, as young men, are often emotional and reactionary. Our generation hates to submit, or be bound to any type of rules or regulations. I think there needs to be a balance of creativity and structure, as I said before. Taking yourself outside of the church is a huge leap of faith and I think it’s going to take a huge amount of effort on your part to create accountability, fellowship, etc., in your life. I would just caution you to make sure you do those things. And since I don’t know you other than from Epinoia, feel free to ignore everything I’ve said. I’m certainly not an authority in your life, nor are you requited to listen to me. I just felt like I needed to say these things…
Blessings,
Jason
Joshua,
You are loved. I am not surprised at all by your decision. I commend you for knowing yourself, your gifts, and for listening to your God. I feel fortunate to have (FINALLY) landed in a (church) building where folks seem to “get” that it isn’t about the building. They know and realize that the building is a gift, a tool, for doing ministry, for being “the Church”. I am thankful for that.
That said, I know of precious few other buildings like my building right now. And that is sad.
You are one of the strongest men of faith I know, and I am proud of you, your growth, your commitment to faith in God, and your willingness to share your faith so easily with others. Building or no building, you are going to be fine, I have no doubt.
“What does the Lord require of you but to do justice, love kindness, and walk humbly with your God.” You embody that for me, Josh, and I thank you for being in my world.
xo - your barb
ps - Jason, I can’t let the “gay thing” slide by in your comment to Josh. Please go to my church’s website (www.fbcmac.org) and click on the link that is titled “Inclusiveness at FBC”. There is strong Biblical backing for homosexuals to be welcome, involved, and accepted into our churches. You believe it to be a sin. I do not, and while I am not trying to change your mind, I cringe when anyone, myself included, makes such a strong, definitive statement as “people who are living a homosexual lifestyle are living in sin”, as you did in your post to Josh. Jason, this is your belief and your opinion. There are many believers who do not share it, and believe that we have the Scriptural backing, insight and word from God to come to that belief FOR OURSELVES. The “open and shut” spirit of your statement about homosexuality closes doors, blocks communication, and inhibits love. I can’t see how any of those things benefit the church, or The Church.
Barbara,
Can you provide me with scriptural evidence that proves homosexuality is not a sin? The only verses I’ve ever seen say it’s a sin.
I got this quote from the man who wrote why he thinks homosexuality was not addressed or why it’s not a sin:
“I have expressed my best studied opinion. But I am no more than an informed student. I am not a New Testament scholar. I can ask no one to agree with me because of my standing as a scholar. I would ask that every pastor and church leader, who is serious about the issue of homosexuality and the church’s ministry, take the time to sort out the facts, the fiction, the myths, the mysteries, and find a model of understanding. It is out of that model of understanding that the strangers in our midst can become our friends, our brothers and sisters in Christ.”
Therein lies the problem. A person who is not learned in the scripture, doesn’t understand the context, the culture and the history, shouldn’t be making such a bold statement. I know Jewish Rabbi’s who could refute everything this man is saying, with references to scripture, the Talmud and Mishnah (the ancient commentaries by the educated Scribes of the day).
The Rabbi who I know, who has written books, studied under Jewish Scholars, and knows the Hebrew language - which one must understand to truly grasp the foundational questions in scripture because our English language can’t translate it properly in many areas -wrote this:
Years ago, in my study of all things Hebrew/Jewish, I discovered an amazing insight. According to Torah, not all sin is equal. Yes, all sin seperates us from God, but the punishment/consequences for a sin is not the same. Here’s a simplistic example:
If someone uses rude language because they’re angry, and another, out of anger, murders a brother . . . the consequences are vastly different. Again, both of these are a sin, in fact, they are similar in content - uncontrolled anger. Yes, both individuals need to learn to control their passion, however, one is an action that extends far beyond the other in scope.
I also found that there are several differing words in Hebrew for “sin.” Our English language doesn’t adequately convey the full weight and understanding of these words. In fact, many times the English translation uses only one word - sin.
Here are some of the words and their definitions:
Avon (iniquity) - this is an inherent weakness or propensity, i.e. anger, lust, greed, etc. Everyone born has iniquity. It is the first “layer” of the sin nature. It seperates us from God. However, just because we have an inherent weakness does not mean we have to give in to it. God can still work with us at this stage.
Hetah (transgression) - this word means “to miss the mark” (interestingly, the Hebrew word Torh means “To hit the mark”), this is the action of giving into our iniquity. Someone, and/or ourself, violates us in our area of weakness and “bruises” it. We respond by listening to that area and acting out in transgression. An example being . . . someone rudely cuts you off in traffic, and you curse at them in anger. Interestingly enough, God can still work with us at this stage. As long as we are repentant and willing to wrestle with the weaknesses in our life.
Pashah (rebellion) - this is the word that is called “sin.” This is the third stage of the sin nature, the one that God can’t work with us. This word means “to defect, to covenant with another, rebellion.” The verse in Isaiah comes to mind: “Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft . . .” This is the stage where we’ve embraced an area of iniquity in our soul, committed multiple transgressions (whether physically or mentally), and we’ve identified with it. I’m sure you’ve all heard the phrase “that’s just the way I am.”? This is an area of bondage; an area of our soul that we’ve given over to the Adversary.
The final stage of sin is death.
Here’s some ancient quotes from the Mishnah to lend understanding to this concept: “Sexual sins are graded in accord with the following principle: The more difficult it is to render an illicit sexual act permissible, the more heinous it is in its essence. The “simplest” sexual sin is that committed between an unmarried man and woman [it's still a sin - emphasis mine]. Their crime consists of not having sanctified their union. Yet clearly it could readily have been rendered permissible through the mitzvah (commandment) of marriage.
Next in level of severity is for a man to have relations with his wife while she is menstruating (which is forbidden in the Torah) and in the state of ritual impurity. Sexual relations are then forbidden, but this remains a relatively low level of crime inasmuch as the passage of a short period of time and the use of the ritual bath would have turned the act into a permissible one.
More severe than the two just mentioned is an illicit union between people married to others. Their act of sex is not permissible, nor will it ever be permissible, unless divorce or death allow them subsequently to sanctify their union. These are neither automatic nor in ther own hands. Hence, this level of sin transcends the crimes previously listed.
Sex with someone not of our own faith would be a severer sin still. Here the forbidden could only become permitted if the “stranger” would convert, an action tantamount, according to Halakhah, to actual rebirth. One may ask at this point, how could there be sins worse than these? On a scale of sexual severity, what supersedes adultery and the others already listed?
. . . the answer is homosexuality and bestiality - because both of these are sexual acts that have no way of being transformed from sinfulness to legitimacy.
How stiking that precisely those two sexual areas, which contemporary morality seems to suggest are beyond the pale of ethical concern, are in fact used as illustrations of the very worst sins. The fact that homosexual partners may be consenting or that in bestiality the “consent” of the animal is mute, is irrelevant.”
I’ll finish with this verse in I John 1:9 that illustrates the differing uses of the words for sin. It says in English - “If we acknowledge our sins, then, since he is trustworthy and just, he will forgive them and purify us from all wrongdoing.”
In Hebrew it should be rendered more accurately: “If we acknowledge our transgressions (Hetah), then, since he is trustworthy and just, he will forgive (pardon) our transgressions (Hetah) and cleanse us of our iniquity (Avon/inherent weakness).”
Barbara,
I’m not attempting to change your mind, but provide you with Biblical and historical evidence (I could provide volumes more), that homosexuality is indeed a sin.
Unfortunatley, too many Christians make statements, create doctrines, and refute scripture without understanding the context. So much of what is written in the NT is directly attached to the OT. To understand the NT completely, one must have a resonable sense of what the OT is saying.
I’m not going to post anything more about this subject here, because that’s not the point of Josh’s post, and I don’t want this subject to become a focus; nor do I want it to create divisions.
Barabara, while I may disagree with you and your churches assessment, you are as much of a child of God as I am. Please don’t think I hold my beliefs on a pedestal of superiority. I don’t. I would never want to judge or condemn you for a certain way of thinking, because that’s not my job. It’s obvious you love God, and your relationship is between Him and you.
Blessings,
Jason
Jason, I can live with your last paragraph. Thank you.
~~barbara
Jason, I’m going to respond to your comments point by point if I may.
“Personally, I don’t think the structure of the church is the problem, but the mentality. The only way it’s going to change is from the leadership of pastors and elders. They are the ones who must see the vision, hear from God (be willing to hear from prophets), and motivate people to move. (God has placed them in that position for a reason, but many of them are failing to listen.) I think the church is stagnant, in large part, because of poor leadership (I’m speaking generally here!) Obviously, we all have responsibility in this, but leaders (in many cases) have done a terrible job of discipling and teaching people what “being” the church is all about.”
Sure, leadership needs to step up, but your comment there reflects the typical American mentality, it’s always somebody else’s fault. Trust me, I’m as guilty of this as the next person, but at some point WE must take responsibility of OUR faith.
“I don’t want to get into a debate about the gay issue, but I will say this: people who are living a homosexual lifestyle are living in sin.”
Thank you for not spending more than a paragraph on this issue, as that’s not what the post was about. However, like Barbara I feel I must at least respond. To be honest, I’m not sure if being gay is a sin or not. There are verses that clearly say it is, but at the same time there are verses that tell me that if someone rapes a woman he should then be required to taker her on as his wife. How is that fair? (See my comments on that issue here). Yet, there are other verses, words of Jesus, that tell me to love my neighbor and to love God, “these are the greatest commandments.” Does that tell me that being gay isn’t sin? No. But it tells me it shouldn’t matter. I’m not the judge. I see a person God created, not a sinner. I see them for what the person is worth in Gods eyes, as such its my job is to love them, not condemn them. You can find support statements in the bible for whatever you believe. So, no one will ever win this argument.
“I think we miss out on the advice from the 80-year-old retired business man, or the prayers and encouragement from the faithful widow.”
Yet, even without church I still have elders in my life. My grandparents, my girlfriends grandmother, and the elderly lady across the street. All of them have had more influence than any person in “the church,” and all have given me the guidance, advice, and accountability that I need. I never got that from church, the most anyone cared there (other than my grandparents) was how I was doing in school — not how was my walk with God, not how am I serving Him, but how am I doing on the way to becoming the well-off adult they always knew I’d grow up to be.
“The Bible is very clear about how to deal with someone who has fallen into sin, and how you are to proceed. But how is that possible without submitting yourself to leadership?”
If you read carefully, the pastor of my local church is still a strong influence on my life. There’s leadership there. My parents and grandparents all have authority over me. And to a point, my girlfriend and best friends all have influence and authority on my life. Again, those people have always been there, and been that, the church hasn’t. If the church did provide those things, maybe I wouldn’t be walking away.
“And since I don’t know you other than from Epinoia, feel free to ignore everything I’ve said. I’m certainly not an authority in your life, nor are you requited to listen to me. I just felt like I needed to say these things…”
Thank you for sharing them. I may not know you personally, but your words on epinoia have challenged me. You may not be an authority in my life, but your opinion is one I respect, as I know you are also seeking God the best way you know how. Thank you for sharing, and being respectful while doing so.
Wow! I bet you had no idea that your thoughts might get this kind of response, huh?
Josh, I know of your frustration and how the institution just doesn’t work. I know how the church can get so bogged down with bureaucracy that the Spirit of God often gets quenched. I know how you see things differently and I know what a breath of fresh air that is even though it may be misunderstood by many. I also know that you gave it your best to hang in there through some very difficult times. For that I’m grateful!
I’m choosing to look at this in another light. You didn’t leave the church and never will. Just because you don’t attend worship services and bible studies doesn’t mean you’ve left. It just means you’re doing it more creatively these days. You have enough people in your life to help you along in your faith. We know where you live and how you can be reached. You’re still around, still connected!
One more thing that I might add to your thoughts. There have been some very deep spiritual conversation outside the church walls that have been rather stimulating. You didn’t get that in the institution. It was through epinoia and some of the gatherings where the discussion have been food for your growth.
Hang in there, my friend. God’s doing some rather remarkable things through His people - and you are one of them!
Love ya man!
Josh,
Thanks for understanding. Glad we can converse about a sticky issue, and not allow it to create a division between us. Bless you for that!
I do want to clarify one thing. You said: “Sure, leadership needs to step up, but your comment there reflects the typical American mentality, it’s always somebody else’s fault. Trust me, I’m as guilty of this as the next person, but at some point WE must take responsibility of OUR faith.”
I agree with that; however, I never meant to say that it’s the pastors fault, and I have no responsibility in the matter - that’s not it at all. Many pastors are unwilling to listen to those in the congregation (who see things differently) that those people are getting frustrated and leaving. I just wonder how well the institution could work if pastors allowed the creativity in their churches that you are seeking.
Jason, thanks for the clarification on that point. I agree 100-percent.
Though it’s not always pastors who don’t listen, but it’s pastors who are intimidated by the “old-timers.” Churches have a history of running off leadership who seek to change things up — pastors fear this — and frankly, I can’t blame them.
Josh, agreed!
I think it starts at ground-zero with children, and with new believers. People need to be discipled and taught to serve God and people, and not just the church. Who cares if you have the latest state-of-the-art equipment if the church isn’t doing anything to help those in need. I think it’s a mind-set that somehow, someway, needs to change.
Yes, people are the problem too, not just the leadership. Unfortunatley, history proves that often times change doesn’t happen until one generation has passed on. I hope that’s not the case with God’s people!
You’re not the first person to bring up “the older generation needs to pass on” concept with me. I think I agree. It’s littered throughout history, and in the bible as well.
Josh, you didn’t leave the church and I know you know that. God’s church is so much bigger than what we in Western Culture think it supposed to be.
Look back at history and you see, what it is today is not how it started. Not even close.
I caution you….you do need people in your life to bounce things off of. You are accountable to God. But people can help keep you headed in the right direction.
There’s still structure out here but it looks a whole lot different and it’s a lot of work.
Love yah.
Swirling around the drain here. Been both places, in the church, and away from the church. Both were fine for me.
Much of the time the instutitional church, the staccatto church sucks big time. Too many board and committee meetings in order to figure out why Cynthia Stout needs to take the garbage out!
If you are a follower of Jesus, you will be fine away from the institutional church. It can only offer you boredom and wisdom accumulated from the ages that you can read in the public library.
The church today has become the electronic church. This web site is proof of that. Person to person relationships matter too. So, find like minded people to hang out with and PROCEED!
Meanwhile, I continue swirling ’round the drain, going to church board meetings, fighting resistance to change, sharing my thoughts, hoping for the best, wishing my worship experience was as good as when I watched Caliandro in New York, or that guy from Riverside in Texas.
I left the church for a long time. Like Rambo said, and it works for me at this time, “I’m back!” I love taking shots at the sticklers in the church, hoping they don’t say, “Geeze, loueeez, that guy is a nut case, but he has good ideas.”
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